Ori Nir
Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us on this Americans for Peace Now webinar. We are happy to see such robust participation. This may be a record for us, I'm not sure. We can see the counter rolling on our screen as people join, and people are joining. So we want to welcome all of you who are joining. We are happy to have you here and we'd be happy to receive questions from you. To post the question, what you do is you use your Q&A tool at the bottom of your screen. You're probably all familiar with it, you've done it before. Our other housekeeping comment is that this is webinar recorded. We will post the video on our YouTube channel and the audio on PeaceCast, our podcast. Our guest today needs little or no introduction. I can safely assume that you either occasionally or regularly read Thomas Friedman's New York Times columns. He's a three time Pulitzer Prize winner and one of America's most influential foreign affairs columnists. He is influential not only in the United States, but also internationally. And I can tell you that whenever he writes about Israel, media outlets in Israel report him very prominently. I've known Tom for many years since he moved from Beirut to Jerusalem in the mid 1980s. I used to run into him when we both covered the First Intifada. And the book, which he wrote under this title "From Beirut to Jerusalem" is one of the only books that I've read several times after assigning it to students when I taught journalism. Tom has published quite a few books since. But that one is still very much recommended. Tom, thank you for joining us.
Tom Friedman
Ori, it's great to have the band back together again. Thank you.
Ori Nir
So I'd like you to start from from the end. And what I mean by that is that I'd like to start from the ending of the column that you published yesterday, in the New York Times. Toward the end there you echo a question that I assume you've heard people asking you quite a bit recently. It says in italics, 'Hey, Friedman, all you seem to write about these days is Ukraine in Israel, don't you have anything else to say?' So in that vein, I want to ask you, over the past three months, you have devoted six of your New York Times columns to the crisis in Israel, you also gave an interview to an Israeli television station to talk about this government's judicial revolution, let's call it and my question is, why? Why do you care so much? And I want to sharpen the question by dividing it into two. One portion of it is, why do you think as you've written as you wrote yesterday, that if Israel were to become a phony democracy like Hungary, the whole world would tip the wrong way? Why do you think the future of Israeli democracy is so consequential? And the second question has to do with you personally. Why do you personally care so much about Israel's future? Why is it so close to your heart?
Tom Friedman
Well, first, Ori, thanks for having me, I get asked to do a lot of these things. I rarely do them. But I think Americans for Peace Now is such an important organization and I have such great respect for you that I have come out of my cave to, to do this. So actually, I didn't say just what's going on in Israel. So what's going on in Ukraine also, is kind consequential. So let me start actually with Ukraine, and then we'll go to Israel. I'm actually working on a book right now on how to write a column. It's sort of a retrospective of my 40 plus years now doing this and a as a reporter and columnist, and at the end of the book, I try to answer three questions. What was the what was the biggest thing that happened in these four decades? What was the best thing that happened? And what was the worst thing that happened? I'm not gonna talk about the worst and the most important, but I have no absolute doubt what is the best thing that happened, in my view in the world in the four decades that I've been a columnist, and that was the formation of the European Union. Now, that surprises most Americans, because Americans will do anything for the EU except read about it. But if you stop and think about it for a second, a continent that had posted tribal wars, for millennia, basically, and in the 19th and 20th century, particularly destructive ones that brought America across the ocean, in effect three times World War I, World War II, and the Cold War, in which we expended enormous blood and treasure. That continent, created a second United States. We're the first generation to actually live in a world with two United States, the United States of Europe and the United States of America. The United States of Europe is not as consolidated, to be sure, but it is nevertheless a giant engine of free markets, of democracy, of human rights and the rule of law. And the world we live in, the world we live in would be fundamentally different without that second United States, and I believe Putin from the very beginning, his goal has been to direct that and fracture that United States. He was aided by our previous president who had no appreciation for the EU. And I believe if he could somehow win in Ukraine, and then put pressure on Poland and the rest of the EU, that would be a very, very bad thing. And I believe Israel plays a hugely important role, we can argue about the imperfections of Israeli democracy. And lord knows it's not perfect, but Israel has managed to maintain an independent judiciary, the rule of law, and a functioning democracy in a region of without any other and that democracy having people. You know, you have to remember I actually lived in the Arab world before I lived in Israel. You know, I lived in Beirut for almost five years. So I actually looked at Israel from the Arab world. And, you know, people are stunned when they see an Israeli president, who is convicted and then jailed for sexual harassment. They're stunned when they see an Israeli prime minister put in jail for corruption, and that functioning Israeli democracy as a huge ressonance. And that's why it's really elections are so followed in the Arab world, because Israel is the only one has election. So whenever Israel has an election, everybody wants to vote, you know, in the whole region. And so, as you it had a huge impact on on Palestinians. You know, when they had a functioning PA, it was a democracy with a parliament, and they didn't get it because of Israel. But having Israel there was was an important and functioning model for them. You take that away, you have a totally different Middle East. So take that away and the EU and you have a totally different world. You have a world where basically a decreasingly hardline China and increasingly Stalinist Russia will be on the march. So if somebody has a better idea of what I should be writing about, please raise your hand. Put it in the chat, but um, between writing about America, writing about the Ukraine war and writing about Israel. I think that that is the most important thing I can do. Now, why do I care personally. You know my friend Henri Lévy wrote a movie about Ukraine. And he did an interview with The New York Times the other day, and he had this quote is just, it was just beautiful. The Times reviewer, a cultural reporter, asked him, why did you make this movie and risking your life in Ukraine? He said, 'well, it's very simple because I see in Ukraine, I see the world I grew up in, came of age in, potentially disappearing before I can even pass that world on to my kids.' So I recently became a grandfather. And I fear that the Europe I knew, the America I knew, that I grew up in benefited in thrive from, and the Israel I knew, I may not be able to pass on to my kids. And so I don't have anything better to do as a journalist then engage in that fight. And I'm, I'm in that fight. And I will tell anybody listening. I may write the next 52 columns about it. And if you've got something better to read, go for it. But um, I don't have anything better to do.
Ori Nir
So in your column yesterday, you quoted Danny Yatom, the former general and former head of Mossad depicting this government is illegitimate. A depiction I agree with and I assume that you do too. But you know, members of this coalition and its supporters in Israel, and here in the United States say, 'Look, we played by Democratic rules, we were legally elected in free elections, we formed a Knesset coalition with a solid majority. Now, this majority does what a parliamentary majority does, which is to legislate. So those who oppose us are just sore losers.' What do you say to that? In what way do you see this government as illegitimate?
Tom Friedman
Well they can legislate whatever policies that they want. And they are. They just added 10,000 new settlement homes in the West Bank, for their constituency, and legalized nine illegal settlements, those are those are policies. But you can't just change the structure of the state. Otherwise, one day, there'll be another election in Israel. And when the left gets in, they say, well, we won so we're getting rid of all Kashrut laws, all restraints on buses on Shabbat, and we're going to draft every yeshiva bocher from Metula to Eilat. People say wait a minute, that's not a policy. That's the very structure of the grand bargain that upholds this country. And that's my my number one point. My number two point is, they didn't run on this, they mentioned it during the campaign. This was not a prominent, Bibi won the way he always wins, raising fears against Arabs, and raising fears about Arab violence. By the way, some of them quite legitimate. But this was not the central focus of their campaign. And then to suddenly come in and say, as he did in his CNN interview, you notice he only gives interviews with foreign reporters who really don't know the story in-depth. And so he says, by the way, I was in Israel after Thanksgiving for a week and asked to see him as I would, you know, I was with one of my editors and it was more for her than for me, but nevertheless, and, and I was told he didn't have any time. And so I know people are busy, that's okay. But um, this is listen to what Netanyahu said to Jake Tapper on CNN, these are small changes, we just want to be like France and Canada, and the United States. And that's where, you know, a fraud is going on, because what leader would risk a civil war, would risk fracturing his country, his whole legacy, for a few little changing. So you know, something much bigger, much more important is at stake. And he knows it, too. And so I actually don't agree with those in Israel. I know where they're coming from. I am a huge admirer of President Hertzog. But I'm not really a believer in this compromise he put down for the simple reason that I don't think this is on the level, I don't think this whole thing is on the level. Okay. And so if you start saying, well, it's your majority of 65 and that's 61, it is a really bad way to approach this. I think you start over, you appoint a national commission, you do a study of what were the legitimate issues, and you present it to the parliament. And then maybe you have a serious discussion with a bipartisan group. But to just ram it through. Again, it tells you this is not on the level. And and you have to know that you know, as a journalist, you learned a very important lesson, which critics to listen to. Because there are two kinds of critics, there's those who want to take you down, and those who want to make you better. Those who want to take you down, I never listened to I never respond to because for me, it's just not on the level and they're not interested in an answer. They're just interested in dinging you, roughing you up. People who really want to make you better I have all day for that's not what's going on here. These guys are out to make the system better. Okay, they're out to tilt the system in a way that will lift restraints on their political agenda.
Ori Nir
Today, demonstrators in Tel Aviv, they were facing police forces who were trying to disperse them, you know, there are these ongoing demonstrations going on in Israel. And they chanted something that I haven't heard before. They said to them, where were you in Huwara, referring to the program by Israeli settlers on Sunday. And I thought it was a significant moment because it showed to me that protesters were making some connection between their cause and the occupation. You've been following the occupation for many years quite closely. So I wanted to ask you, how do you see a link between the government's anti democratic legislation frenzy and the occupation? Do you see a direct causal relationship between the two?
Tom Friedman
Oh, There's no question you know that what the government wants is to you saw, what two weeks ago when a a long delayed Supreme Court ruling that 40 acres of olive trees planted by a settler on land that was determined to be either in dispute or owned by a Palestinian that the army was ordered to uproot those, those olive groves, and then settlers tried to interdict that and Gvir spoke out against it. That's what they want. They want no restraints by the Israeli Supreme Court. Now, the reason you're seeing all these special forces and pilots joining the opposition is they know that Israel does not get dragged before the Hague, for the most part, because it's understood it has an independent judiciary, that applies human rights and the rule of law. Not perfectly, not in every case. I'm sure Palestinians have many legitimate grievances. But in the context, that's how it's perceived. These generals know that the minute Israel is not perceived to have a legitimate independent judiciary, that anytime they travel abroad, they can land in London, Rome, Paris, and be handed a summons. And so the this judiciary is so important to protecting, you know, the whole role of the army. And so I think something else is going on Ori, which is very interesting, because I, you know, I haven't been there since the protest started on mass. But what I read about is you have your settlers who are so opposed to this judicial, you have Orthodox, you have Israeli Arabs showing up. And, you know, one of the things that the last two elections, really the last five, really told us and and this is something we better come to terms with, the only way you can get a liberal majority, a stable liberal majority in the Knesset is if you have Israeli Arabs, there just aren't enough Jews. Okay, there are not enough Jews anymore. And so unless there is a common front, between Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews, on a on a liberal, I mean, that in the broad political science sense, not in the left, right sense, believing in the rule of law and democracy. I don't see how you get a stable majority. Of course, Netanyahu understood this. You know, one of the most, you know, Haaretz did a thing, you know, it was a it's like a counter of all the lies he told Jake Tapper in the CNN interview, they just did a special thing, because there's so many and he's such a practiced and professional liar, that it's, um, you really have to keep track. I mean, it's just, you have to listen to every word. But to me the most pernicious was he accused Bennett's government, the previous government, of bringing the Muslim Brotherhood into power in Israel into the Israeli ruling coalition. Of course, he was talking about Mansour Abbas, an amazing Israeli Arab politician who does come from an Islamist party every bit as much as there are ultra orthodox parties in this cabinet. He comes from an ultra orthodox Muslim party, a man who has has basically spoken about what a tragedy the Holocaust is, and oppose the burning of synagogues in Ramallah, when, when that happened, he's exactly the kind of Israeli Arab citizen you would want to make partnership and common cause with, but more importantly, Netanyahu trashed the previous government said Arab leaders came to me and said, Why are you bringing Muslim Brotherhood into the government? When Netanyahu knows, as does everyone Israeli politics, he tried to get Mansour Abbas into his government. And the only reason he didn't was because Ben Gvir and Smotrich wouldn't serve with him. And that's why he couldn't govern the last time around. So he knows this and yet he says, this bald faced lie, just a bald faced lie to Jake Tapper who didn't know the details and couldn't come back and say, 'What are you talking about? You tried to get this Muslim brother in your government.' And so you got to pay attention to every word that comes out of his mouth now. I saw pictures yesterday of Chuck Schumer smiling, yucking it up with his old pal Bibi and in the parliament. And my attitude is you are a useful idiot Chuck, you are a useful idiot. Just to get some picture back home and the Jewish Week in New York, you know that might get you a few votes, like would you be yucking it up with Kevin McCarthy right now? Would be up yucking it up with Tucker Carlson. Well, what are you doing yucking it up with him? Useful idiot.
Tom Friedman
I want to talk a little bit about and I want to I'd like to drill down as much as we can on US policy. So let's talk a little bit about the US reaction here. We've seen statements by Secretary of State Blinken, Ambassador Nides and Israel, Members of the House, the Senate, as well as those 46 words that you received from President Biden, which you quoted on your, in your February 12 column. And albeit restrained, the President's reaction was unprecedented, as you pointed out, you wrote in your column that if Netanyahu just keeps plowing plowing ahead with with his initiative, he will be snubbing the American President, which is, as you wrote, no small deal. And what we're seeing, I think, is that that that he is, in fact, plowing ahead, trampling on the democratic values that the US and Israel supposedly or not supposedly share. You wrote that if that happens, we are in a totally new world. So let's talk about the contours of this world. What what do Israel-US relations look like, in this new world when a Israeli prime minister says the heck with you, basically.
Tom Friedman
So you know, Netanyahu thinks he knows America better than anybody. And in some ways he might in this sense, Ori that he is counting on the fact that Republicans will stand up for him. Evangelicals will stand up for him. There'll be enough Democrats worried about Jewish votes and Jewish donations, AIPAC, which is his sock puppet, will say whatever he needs, and so even if the administration comes out against him, look, this is a guy who defied President Obama and got himself invited to speak to a joint session of Congress to attack a sitting president. And I'm not here to tell you he's wrong. I'm not here to tell you he's wrong. I am here to tell you that I'm doing everything I can, including seeking out a statement from President Biden to say to the administration, and as I, as I presented in the column, say to the president, President Biden, you may not be interested in Jewish history, but Jewish history is interested in you. Because you may be the only one able to stop this train. And you may think, I got to deal with Ukraine, I gotta deal Russia, I got to deal with China. This is like the last thing I need, who owns which olive tree outside Nablus. But here's what, where this starts to get really dangerous for American interests. You get a real conflagration in the in the West Bank Intifada three. And one day, you'll never see it coming. There'll be protests in the streets of Amman and Cairo. Now, those protests will start out as in support of Palestinians. But they will quickly shift to demands about food subsidies and oil subsidies and inflation and corruption. We've seen this play over and over and over again. And suddenly these Arab regimes will be really shaking. And let's remember what Smotrich and Ben Gvir have in mind, they want to push Arabs out into Jordan, they believe Jordan is Palestine. And, and Jordan could really be shaken by this. I think it would take a lot to get the Abraham Accord countries to break relations with Israel over this or even do anything because these guys know just what they're doing. They're in it for hardcore interest protection against Iran, and investment opportunities in Israel. And they really don't like the Palestinians at all. And so they will do whatever you know, they're going to do, but just from an American stability point of view, American interests, we have a lot of interests at stake here. And where Israel becomes not a source of stability for us, but a source of instability. And but it is not one of the problems we're facing now Ori, is it is so not in the collective consciousness in DNA of any US administration to intervene in Israeli politics in this way. It's just not. It's not part of what they do. And there's no generation since the I guy covered, Jim Baker, who was ready to do it. I'll never forget once being with Baker on a trip to Israel and he met with Shamir, some settlements issue came up and we went back to Lod airport, and we're flying to Damascus. And Baker just told the pilot to turn the engines off, invite us off to his cabin. And he dumped on Shamir like nobody's business, you know. And he is the guy who said, you know, if you want to when you're serious, call me 2024561414. And some people would say he got that for me. So, I would since then, though, we've lost the habit of having an adult conversation with Israel. So what we do is Israel announces 10,000 more settlements and we issue a statement of chagrin of disappointment of concern. And so they don't take it seriously, and they shouldn't take it seriously. And I think this is a real come-to-Moses moment for the Biden administration. What are you going to do? And I think they're beginning to realize that the old constrains, AIPAC, American Jewish votes, I think if you took a vote among American Jews, a vast majority would support the administration standing up for democracy in Israel. So I don't think it's an electoral issue. But these are totally new habits. And we live in such a polarized world, although it's very interesting. David Friedman, Trump's ambassador to Israel, if you saw this, and no relation, as they say, came out yesterday against this legal, you know, push. That was very interesting. Yeah.
Ori Nir
I just tweeted today that I wrote, 'I can't believe that I'm saying I would never say it. But, you know, kudos to David Friedman.'
Tom Friedman
Absolutely. And so, so you're seeing this, and that's why the administration is just not on, they just don't feel steady on this. They don't know what ground they're standing on. Like with Ukraine, they understand, with China they understand. That this is so new to them. And you don't have any of the older hands, Martin Indyk, Dennis Ross, Aaron Miller, kind of inside to guide them. I'm not trying to put down the people are there but they're not people with that kind of wealth of experience, who also don't mind. You know, I'm not being a columnist is not a friend growth industry. Like if you don't like being attacked, or criticized, you know, be an ophthalmologist, but don't do what I do. And you know, Dennis Ross, Martin, people like that they have all the bruises to show, but they're not afraid to get into this kind of fight. And I think some of the new generation, they're not as committed, they're not as emotionally involved. I think there aren't the kind of people there who already say, throw down the gauntlet, let's let's, let's get in the ring on this.
Ori Nir
So if the US was to adopt new habits, what would those be? And I'm asking this because, you know, we already have some quite a few people who are asking questions, and I want to encourage people to continue doing that, if I am to lump a few together and try to convey the the tone or the content of many of those. It is that what can the US realistically do now?
Tom Friedman
Well, I the kind of statement, I would like to see as one that says, you know, Israel as a healthy and legitimate integral democracy, has been a amazing partner to the United States. And we want the Israeli people to understand that when it comes to their security, against real threats in the neighborhood, if we agree or disagree on any particular structural policy, constitutional policy, please understand, we will be there for you, against Iran, against real threats. We've been there before we are partners, we will be there for you. But friends, don't let friends drive drunk. And right now, what you're doing, constitutionally is the equivalent of drunk driving. And if you go down that path, we are going to have to reassess our relations with your country. If it is no longer democracy, we will be there for your security no matter what, at least in the near term. But we will have to have a reassessment. And I don't know this Ori, but one of the things I learned covering this story for many years, how many times Israeli Prime Ministers actually are dying for an American President to say something so they can go back to the cabinet and say, 'Look, I'd love to build these 100,000 settlements, I'd love to actually redo the Constitution, but that son of a bitch Biden stayed my son of a bitch. He stayed my hand, but for him, I I would be with you.' Okay. You have to understand the internal dynamics there. And I think I wouldn't be surprised. I don't know this. I wouldn't say it categorically. But I wonder whether Bibi actually couldn't use an American president saying, you know, I'd come you know, no farther, you know. And so that's really what I would what I would advocate.
Ori Nir
I'd like to relay a question that was asked by my friend Martin and he's writing should the US be prepared to threatened withholding of some security assistance, which, you know, is considered sacrosanct here in Washington. What do you think?
Tom Friedman
I would not go there. I just would not go there. I think that's when you really turn the whole Israeli a much bigger part of the population against you, I would keep it right on this issue. And that it's about our concern for Israel's place in the world, how its soldiers will be received, as they say, in places like the Hague, and at the UN, and we can't defend this, we can't defend this. And you should know that, and we aren't going to defend it. But we understand you live in a very dangerous neighborhood, we are not going to ever leave you alone, against really far more evil systems like Iran. But um, but we can't defend this. It's it's threading a needle. But that's what you have to do.
Ori Nir
You mentioned, James Baker earlier, James Baker drove a we can call it peace initiative, maybe with a lowercase 'p.' Despite the very clear objection of a right wing government, do you think there's any point any wisdom in trying to do something similar now? In other words, to actually push for negotiations?
Tom Friedman
It's a good question. I haven't thought about it. There's so little bandwidth left after you're done with dealing with China. And you think there would be that there's multiple but there isn't, and you really need the right person to do this. You know, and, and the right SOB. Yeah, I mean, cuz and Baker was just, he was like, minted for that job, you know. And he understood power. And, you know, I used to say, when Baker showed up, I traveled with Jimmy for all for all 750,000 miles. So I saw this whole thing close up, not just with Israel, but Russia, China. You knew when Baker showed up, diplomacy was going to happen, because people knew that Baker and the President were like this. Talk to Baker, you're talking to Bush, talk to Bush, you're talking to Baker. And you could see leaders sit up a little straighter when he showed up. Now, leaders in that part of the world can smell your power and detect it from 100 paces. And I'm not sure right now, you know, whether this team and I want to put them down. So they never really put this full brunt into the story yet. But I know watching Warren Christopher, like when he would show up, you know, it was like he was downtime on some leaders. Okay, Warren Christopher is here, that's 30 minutes of downtime. You can't the way you deal in that part of the world diplomatically, metaphorically, is you start the meeting by take the other leaders and put it on the table, take a hammer out, smash all their knuckles, and then start to compensate. 'Now, do you hear me? Do you hear me, okay?' That's how you get stuff done. And in that part of the world, no one's going to take the risks, deal with their own domestic politics, you know, because everything is easier than doing that. So they just wait, they wait you out, they wait for you to go away. And so if you're not ready to out crazy them, you know, and really make it clear, this is important to you, don't start. So that's also what I would say. And that's, that's the implication.
Ori Nir
Netanyahu's finance minister Smotrich, is scheduled to come here to the United States in 10 days or so. And I don't know if you if you saw today, the yeah you saw what he said today, just for our listeners or viewers, today, he talked about the his support for wiping out, that's a quote, an entire Palestinian village of 8,000 residents. That's the village in which the murder of the two settlers happened in on Sunday. What would you recommend the admin administration do regarding his upcoming visit?
Tom Friedman
Yeah, I haven't thought this through Ori, so I don't want to but one thing I hope they're studying is is is not letting him in, not giving him I don't know if he needs a visa or not. And I don't think he's actually scheduled to meet anyone in the administration. So I think this is to speak on Israel Bonds dinner. But you know, I don't want to turn him into a martyr either. So I haven't really thought about it. I think it's something I would think about but I think the most damaging thing is actually call it out publicly by the Secretary of State. Let the whole world know. Use our megaphone, that everywhere this guy travels, that quote should travel with him.
Ori Nir
We were getting a lot of questions from our attendees regarding American Jews. What what it is that you know, and I so know that feeling among our supporters and activists here, what can we do, they're asking, in order to make a difference? What would you say?
Tom Friedman
It's really hard, but I think the most important thing to do is to let the Democratic Party know, your Senator, your congressman, that you're not happy where this is going. And this is not business as usual. And I'm just because they go over to Israel for a week and get a picture with the Prime Minister and flash it to you at their talk at your synagogue, you're not interested, because you're interested in the fate and future of Israel. And I think conveying that is what will then give legislators the sense of empowerment again, because AIPAC, you know, thinks it's got all these guys. And AIPAC is Bibi sock puppet, you know, I mean, it's, um, it never had an independent view from Netanyahu. And some of these other organizations, frankly, the American Jewish Committee ain't so great, either. You know, these are organizations that came out against the Iran Deal under Obama, with no expertise on this deal whatsoever. They did it because Netanyahu told them to do it. And then what did we discover? How many Israeli generals and intelligence people were for the deal. Okay. But Netanyahu completely monopolized the conversation. These groups just took it and suddenly weighed in against the President of the United States on that issue, and I found that really offensive because they didn't know what they were talking about. And so I would go around those organizations, I think, and simply conveyed to your congressman and senator, that how much you you are concerned about this, and you hope the United States will play a constructive role in trying to prevent this train from going off the tracks, I think that's the best thing. Second best thing is donate money to Israel Democracy Institute, American Friends of Peace Now, to all the organizations promoting the New Israel Fund, liberal values, the rule of law and Arab Israeli coexistence. That's those are the two things that come to my mind.
Ori Nir
So you just mentioned the Arab Israeli coexistence. And one of the questions that we got in the Q&A here has to do with your opinion, and I'm always interested in people's opinions about that of people to people programs. Do you think that in such times, such programs both in Israel proper and between Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank, have a role to play to make a difference? What's your opinion?
Tom Friedman
Gonna be honest, no. I believe good fences make good neighbors. It's only when people are secure in their own space. You give me a fence between Israelis and Palestinians. That's when Palestinians will say to Israelis now what were you trying to tell me about the Holocaust? And that's when Israelis, will say to Palestinians, what are you trying to tell me about the Nakba? You know, but I gotta be secure in my own space to really be able to reach over that fence. Because the problem is not that we don't understand each other, it's that we do. We both want the same thing. Okay. And, frankly, everybody wants all of it, you know, I mean, that's what they would prefer, but they can't have all of it, you know, and I believe only when there is that separation, then, then that kind of coexistence talk can actually really have meaning and concretized, that separation, but I start with a two state solution. And then I look for coexistence. I don't think coexistence alone is going to produce a two state solution.
Ori Nir
I want to go back to the first issue that we talked about, which was the impact of the state of Israeli democracy, on, you know, the broader, so we talked about the region, and you talked about Palestinians. But is there also a global dimension to it do you think?
Tom Friedman
Yeah, I mean, I don't want to exaggerate it Ori, it's a good question. But look, when when Hungary and Poland took this autocratic turn, that had global resonance. In fact it had global residents within the Republican Party in this country, um, you know, Tucker Carlson went off and did a show from Hungary. Now, here's the kind of people who really know how to run a country, you know. Netanyahu's son went to Hungary. So people, you know, don't follow what you tell them, they follow what they see. You know, there's no more power than the power of example, you know, and when they see people standing up to defend a democracy, they're inspired by it, when they see people caving to a democratic, you know, majoritarian strongman. Then the next guy like in Turkey says, 'Hey, I could do that I could do that.' And then the next leader in Africa is 'I could do that.' And the next leader in Asia says 'I could do that.' Whereas if you see people in Israel, actually resist us with popular resistance, and a broad based coalition that inspires other thing. That you know, I'm going to tell you something The world is flat. And in fact, it's flatter than ever. Don't let anybody tell you. It's not in the sense, I meant it, which is more people in more places can now compete, connect and collaborate for less money in more ways on more days than ever before. We can now hear we can hear each other whisper. Okay. And the power of example, has never been more powerful.
Ori Nir
That's a great point I wanted to go back to that, quote, in italics in yesterday's column, where you ask yourself, for you convey other people's question that has been asked of you, of focusing on Ukraine and Israel. We have a few questions here in the Q&A, and I know the kind of people they're coming from. And I want to, you know, relay them as they are. Why don't you write more about the Palestinians and their plight is the question.
Tom Friedman
So it's a good question. It's a legitimate question. You know, I've been doing this since 1978. I wrote a whole book about Palestinians and their plight. I won my second first Pulitzer for covering Sabra and Shantila, I won my second Pulitzer for covering the lead up to the Intifada. It's true of late in my current incarnation now, not in the Middle East, I write about it less. But I will tell you my entire focus, my way of contributing is getting people focused and keeping alive a two state solution. I'm not into and other people are, the competition over who is behaving worst in the region, you know, and using my column to declare it, he is bad here and she is bad there. And which part of this do I write I write about the two people who are killed Israelis killed yesterday, or the 11 Palestinians were killed the day before, or the three of those Palestinians were killed the day before the 11 killed Israelis? If you want a judge, to tell you who is most evil, you got the wrong guy. I'm here to focus on what will create a solution that will maximize the ability of both communities to realize their full potential in the long run. I've done plenty of scorekeeping in my years. And what I've discovered or you know, even when I was in Israel, I would often get Israelis and Palestinians from different directions would say, 'Well, you never write about that.' So actually, I wrote about it on Wednesday. In fact, here's the story right here in the paper, your problem is not that I didn't write about it. Your problem is that nobody cared. I can't control that. Don't confuse the two. Okay. And I would say just quite humbly, what would what would the Kurds give? What would the Yazidis give for one week of press coverage that Palestinians get? Let's not. Let's not forget that. Okay. So it's not the only tragedy in the world. It's not the only people behaving badly. It's not the only people suffering. But my energies, because I'm spread all over. My whole focus is how do we actually get a solution so we don't have to be keeping score anymore. That's really where I'm coming from.
Ori Nir
I want to relay a question from our former chair of the board, Martin Bressler, who writes about the the influence of evangelicals in this country on the issue of Israel. Do you have thoughts ideas about how one can address the the influence that they have in support of the of the, you know, extremists in Israel?
Tom Friedman
No, I don't know enough about it. I don't want to wade into it. Because I'm afraid I just don't know enough about all those connections. But you know, the answer to influence is influence. You know, it's just organize, use leverage, you know, find where the where the leverage points are, and apply them the other way.
Ori Nir
One of the benefits of doing this and having a kind of an in giving people the ability to immediately respond to what you say is that they do that. So we have quite a few questions about the two state solution. Questions that I keep being asked all the time, and that is, how viable do you think it is? So you're saying, you know, that should be the focus, that should be the onus and I'm totally with you. Quite a few of our attendees here, have been asking in the past few minutes. You said to state solution. Is it still possible, is it still viable?
Tom Friedman
Well, it's a legitimate question. I did a big article about Israel and the trip I took there in December, and the lead was that the two state solution isn't dead, but it's in hospice. You know, and and the reason I keep trying to extend its life is because there is the only other solution is what Meron Benvenisti used to call a shepherds war, or what you're seeing now, it's just a shepherds war. And that'd be terrible for Palestinians, it'd be terrible for Israelis. And so I'm always, you know, thinking about how you get there, and trying to give airtime to people who are thinking about that. And because it's the only answer, you know, and, and my criticism of Israelis on this, and this includes the Israeli left, how did we just have five elections? And nobody talked about a two state solution? That was a shanda and that showed you how much Netanyahu had reframed the debate. Now I get it. I know all about the Olmert plan all about the Barak plan on what happened and there's plenty of fault for Palestinians there because I don't buy I should say, the argument that you hear this a lot or Well, you know, Barak's plan, it was not actually 96, it was actually 87. Wasn't 92 was actually 72, when you put, you know what, I don't know whether it was 72, or 82, or 92, or 102. All I know is the first time and Israeli Prime Minister put down a plan for a two state solution that went from nothing, you know, to a substantial two state solution there was only one correct Palestinian response. No. 'No, Mr. Prime Minister, we want 100% because we've already been compromising. We want 100%.' This is what Arafat should have said. 'Sadat got 100% I want 100%. But here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to work with you. I'm gonna go to every town in Israel. And I'm going to work with you to persuade Israelis, why we can go from 72, 82. 92, or 102. The fact that that wasn't done. People need to answer that question, too. So I have I have a little problem with that. And I don't buy any of the commentary on that, that defend somehow Arafat turning that down. No, the right answer was 'No, but and now I'm going to work with you to make it happen.' And so you know, that's all I can tell you is that my criticism of Israelis on this is that Israel's enormously creative country, new startups every day. But how do we just have five elections without someone imagining, hey, here's a new approach to a two state solution that will make us secure a Palestinian secure, we use new technology, we do that. How can nobody have put that on the table? They allowed you to name something as to own it, if you can name the issue you can only issue I know this is a columnist and Bibi named a two state solution treason. Yeah. And people didn't fight that. And that is a huge failure of the Israeli left and center.
Ori Nir
Yeah. And then the entire Israeli polity named the political game, pro Bibi, anti-Bibi.
Tom Friedman
Yeah, it just was a real failure, you've got to name things, you know. And that's how you own an issue.
Ori Nir
I want to ask you, if, if, like me, you're also aware of the clock ticking. I'm not talking about the clock of our webinar here, which is also ticking and we're getting closer to its end, but also the clock ticking in Israel, in terms of demographics. And I'm not talking about the balance between Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians, but within the Jewish public, the skyrocketing pace with which the sector of Israeli society that will be most prone to oppose a peace solution that is the ultra Orthodox in the modern Orthodox, growing in a much, much higher rate than the overall population. And bringing us to a situation where almost any kind of a realistic solution that may be raised in the future would be shut down by a majority that is predisposed to to oppose peace.
Tom Friedman
It's, look, it's a huge it's a huge problem, Ori, and you know what, as well as anybody, I was there for the transition. I was there as a reporter for the transition. Because when I was in Israel as a reporter, the head of the National Religious party was Dr. Yosef Burg. And then religious Zionism was really based on, on religion, but on the state and the rule of law, the transition to religious Zionism to a Messianic movement that put the land above Torah, basically, as the goal was a huge transition. And so I think that the left has got to find common cause with traditional religious Zionists who don't necessarily buy into that. Because we've basically seen, the Orthodox ultra orthodox population doubled in a generation from 10 to 20%, over doubles, again, from 20 to 40%. Unless the center can make common cause with that, I don't see why they can't. They religious parties have been in all kinds of governments before, it's that Bibi has managed to tie them up. And I think the center and left should be asking how that happened, how religious people felt deeply alienated from progressives and the left so much, that they would just throw all their lot in with Netanyahu. But I think we have to think strategically like that. And there's got to be common cause between Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews, because without that, the numbers just will not work.
Ori Nir
Tom I wanted to, we're getting closer to the end of this conversation. And I wanted to just refer to something you said earlier, which I thought just really hit a nerve with me, which is the way in which is Israeli democracy has actually inspired Palestinians. I remember when I started covering the West Bank, which was at the time when you just came there, just before the beginning of the First Intifada, I was very young. And I actually was pretty much tabula rasa, I didn't know much about Palestinians, I would cross the green line and spend most of my day in the West Bank. And I would hear from Palestinians there this kind of bewilderment, they would tell me, how is it that such a vibrant democracy that you have there behaves in such an undemocratic despotic way across the green line here in the West Bank, and I would cross the green line, you know, drive five minutes into my home in West Jerusalem, and think about how close we are yet how different those two realities Israel governance are. And my hope was always that they will come when, when Palestinians will not they will not be under Israeli democracy, but they will be able to sort of import if you will, or at least be inspired by Israeli democratic values, and implement them in in their own you know, political entity. And what we're seeing today, as we, you know, mentioned before, which is sort of the seeping in of non democratic occupation inspired norms into Israel proper. And I just wanted to share this with you and just just kind of ask you, have you ever do you ever dream that will will reach this this situation that we'll be in this kind of place?
Tom Friedman
No, I haven't. And it's, um, it's deeply depressing to me because I, you know, I loved the Oslo years. I never forget. I mean, I once went to see Uri Savir was one of the architects of Oslo, at the prime minister's office, and we were both going to the same conference in Jordan. I never forgot this. He said, Oh, you're going to this Middle East economic conference, and you're going to this conference. Do you want to ride? I said, Sure. And we basically drove from his office to downtown Amman, across the bridge, obviously, he had full, you know, laissez-passer access across the bridge. I think it was like an hour. You know, and you just think of what, what could be. You know, one of my favorite books is right here is called "The Company of Strangers" by Paul Seabright. And what is the book about. It's basically about what made for great civilizations, was the ability to collaborate with strangers. So when we were hunter gatherers, we only collaborate with our family and then with our tribe, we acturally made for great civilizations was when, when people could collaborate with strangers, who are not part of their kin, their blood, you know, and the other person who has influenced my thinking a lot is Robert McNeal, the historian, who's whose argument was what drives history. What drives history? Was it the rise and fall of civilizations that Toynbee says now? Is it the eternal quest for freedom? What drives history is contact between strangers. And basically two things happen where you have contact between strangers. One is you say, well, that stranger has got something to teach me. I want to learn and collaborate from him. And the other is that stranger is doing better than me and I feel humiliated. And I'm going to resist that, you know. And, you know, all that thinking is so important to me because I, this gets to the book I'm writing on, you know, look, we're going into a world, Ori, that to thrive as a species our condition now, I'll just do a little world-is-flat Tom Friedman for a second. So our condition as a species now is one of interdependence. That's our condition. Okay. We're interdependent by climate, by communication, by trade, by travel. We are we are fused as my teacher and friend, Dov Seidman likes to say, interdependence is our condition. The only question is, are we going to rise together or fall together? But whatever we do, baby, we're going to do it together. And so if Israel thinks that can be this kind of island, with walls around it, and it's going to be okay, not not in this world, okay, you know, this is a world where our condition now is one of interdependence. And the countries that will adapt the best, I argue, are those who can basically collaborate with strangers to build engines of collaboration, because that's what enables you to be adaptive, productive and resilient. Now, what's interesting to me about the Arab world right now, is you see a real clash between two types of leaders. One is the Iranian leader, let's say the Arab Muslim world, one is the Iranian leader, the Iranian leader is the old model, I am going to build my legitimacy on the basis of resistance, resistance to the Americans, Gamal Abdel Nasser follow me, I will build my legitimacy on my resistance my ability to resist. You have a new generation, represented by people like bin Zayed in the UAE say, no, no, I'm gonna build my legitimacy, through resilience, how much resilience I can produce for my people. And so there's a real struggle there right now between the resistance folks who want to do the old model right out of the Nasser right, 50s and 60s, and this new model struggling to be born. And I know that within the Palestinian community, there are there's a whole generation of potential resilience leaders, you know, they're just, they're, they've been born, but they're waiting to take off. And that's why one of the things I will never forgive the Israeli government, or the Palestinian government, or the American government, and that was letting Abu Mazen get rid of Salam Fayyad because Salam Fayyad was the model of a Palestinian leader who said, I'm gonna build my legitimacy on the basis of how much resilience I can deliver for my people. And the Israelis didn't want that they were have very cynically happy to see that out of the way, Abu Mazen didn't want it. And we Americans, we just said, We're here just watching, you know. And so leadership matters. And when the world is changing this fast, it really matters because it's like in a 747, you know, if you just put the wrong navigational numbers in, you just flipp two numbers, you put the three where the five is, and the five where the three is, you can be 5,000 miles off course, really fast. And the pain of getting back on course, when the world is moving this fast, is just enormous.
Ori Nir
Okay, so we have many, many questions that are unaddressed, we had almost 100 questions. And I want to I want to apologize to those of you who I did not, you know, did not address their questions. Many of the questions are actually directed either to me personally, or to APN. And I have your email addresses. So I'm going to actually respond to you. But this does bring our very interesting webinar to an end. I want to thank Tom Friedman very much for spending this full hour with us. I think I'll be speaking for all of us, our activists and supporters, and all the attendees today by thanking you for your courageous opinion and analysis, leadership, both on the issue that we discussed today, but also in many other global affairs. So thank you very much, Tom.
Tom Friedman
Thank you. It's great. All right. Thank you very much, and good luck. And, you know, you should go from strength to strength with your Arab and Israeli and American and global supporters.
Ori Nir
Thank you very much, and thanks to everyone who joined us. Stay tuned for more APN Webinars coming soon. Bye now. Thanks.