Madeleine Cereghino 00:00
Welcome to this Americans for Peace Now webinar. I am Madeleine Cereghino, APN’s director of government relations. Since October 7th, the Israeli government has launched a massive annexation effort– displacing Palestinians, expanding existing settlements, and doubling the resources available to settlements– “legalizing” more than 70 illegal outposts along the way. Under Netanyahu and Smotrich’s governance, emboldened settlers have essentially been granted carte blanche for land seizure, crop and livestock destruction, and violent altercations with Palestinians– all with minimal consequences.
To discuss these alarming updates, we are joined by Lior Amichai, the executive director of our sister organization, Shalom Achshav (Peace Now), which has recently released a report detailing the recent annexation effort.
Let’s begin with the findings of the report. Can you give us an understanding of the situation in the West Bank? What do you see as the main drivers behind the significant increase in the establishment of new outposts, the advancement of construction plans, and the rise in settler violence? Can you shed light on the factors contributing to this, and are there specific policy changes or political dynamics within the coalition that may have influenced these troubling trends? And, following the 10/7 terrorist attacks, have you observed a further uptick?
Lior Amihai 03:09
So many things are going on while rightly so, the major focus is on Gaza and perhaps on escalation or things that could happen from who knows what Iran is, Hezboll and the things that are already happening in the north of Israel and South Lebanon, etc. Nevertheless, there is another drama that's happening, and that is what the Israeli policy towards the occupied territories is, and specifically its annexation efforts in the West Bank. And this report that we highlighted, or that we just published, sort of summarizes the most significant "achievements" of this government that is doing in the occupied territories in order to advance them. Is there background noise that's happening? We are just having in the parallel room just next to me, they are just finishing another conference of activists-- is the noise okay?
Madeleine Cereghino 04:07
you're coming through clearly. Thank you.
Lior Amihai 04:09
Okay, good. So if it does cut through, please tell me, and I'll ask them to be slightly quiet. I think what is really significant about this is in it, of course, it has implicate wider implications on Gaza in the on the possibility of ending this war and returning of the hostages. And of course, on the grander scheme of things, you know, the Israeli Palestinian conflict and possibly the Israeli Arab conflict, and, of course, the tensions with Iran. But nevertheless, this is a big drama, and it's happening in things that are going, many of them slightly unnoticed. Some are getting so little more attention, but nevertheless, this is a big drum now, since this war began, and I'm going to try to sort of highlight what we highlight in our report that. It's very short so you can read them, because it summarize all the key events. And each one of these, you can go and dig deeper, and we have like, small reports on each one of them. But what we've seen so this is since the war began, basically, is that settlers established 25 new settlements, as we term them as outposts, so unofficial recognized Israeli settlements. Now this is huge. This is 25 new communities have been established since the war began. So while Israel is at war, at efforts that settlers are taking action and establishing communities. And of course, the whole system is supporting this. So the military is not enforcing its law on it or its orders on it. They're not evacuating them in the country. They're protecting them, etc. Roads are on a massive scale. Have been opened up, have been paved. Dozens of miles of roads are being built and were built since the war began, and just these two things together, outposts and roads have, of course, what we put our focus on, severe political significances. They also have directly effect on Palestinian communities and livelihood and on the occupation levels that they feel. So once you have a road to an outpost, a new outpost, and a road to it that prevents Palestinians who work the land near to enter or Palestinian communities, it harms their freedom of movement and such. It leads to massive settler balance, which I'll also touch about, etc. So we've got these two major things that are directly on the ground. The government also declared 25 or 24,000 dunams of land as what they term state lands. State plans is public land. It means that it's taking land and saying, Oh, this land began belongs to the public, and the public is the state of Israel. And we know that these lands were, are or will be allocated for the use of the interest of settler and settler groups and settlements etcetera. This is just to give you. This is half of the amount that was declared since the Oslo Accords and to date, so half of the amount that the Government of Israel declared as state plans since the 1990s since 1992 to this day, 50% of it was during since the war. The government also advanced nearly 9000 housing units within existing settlements through the planning procedures, something that we systematically follow, again, very a large amount, it recognized five new settlements. Now, until a couple of years ago, the official policy of the state of Israel that it doesn't establish new settlements. Therefore, the phenomena of the outpost, we seeing the, you know, the the illegal settlements, or the unauthorized settlements, which are the outposts. Now, you know, just another government decision. Five new settlements are established. They're also in the process of recognizing unauthorized outpost as official settlements. They did that to three of them and and this is in the wider, again, the policy of the government, and is, by the way, preceding previous governments, but recent ones that all outputs this government has put significant, significant emphasis on this is that all the outposts are eventually going to be legalized some way or another, and they are in the process of this. And three of them, they did legalize as neighborhoods of existing settlements. This is one of the ways that they do that 70 of these outposts, the government is transferring funds to them. Now this is officially, now, you know, this is, I'll just say a word about this, because we argue and we prove and we show that the government is supporting, materially wise and financing outposts since they're established, basically through many ways, through regional councils and such. It never did so directly like this. Now the government made a decision to fund 70 outposts, unauthorized outpost by government funding. So now the ministry is funding an unauthorized or an illegal outpost, according to Israeli Law, directly, just because they're on a list that they make. So they wrote, okay, these 70 outposts, whatever, whichever outputs we put on this list, the government will now find-- this is law. And so this is what they did. This is This is unprecedented. This is the first time it happened. They also established settlements in Hebron, which is always dramatic. I won't go into that, but because Hebron is a Palestinian cities, apart from East Jerusalem, which a lot of things are happening there as well, which I won't deal with, unless you want me to, but Hebron is... so East Jerusalem and Hebron are both the only cities Palestinian cities where there are settlements within them directly. And so another settlement was established in Hebron. So. I'll just highlight a few more things. One finance wise, the government is exploding the settlements with money. Smotrich-- we showed leaked statements or speaking into his crowd, and we leaked this to the New York Times. We recorded it, and we gave them to them, where he says that 7 billion, this is nearly, let's say 8 billion would be about. So nearly $2 billion are now being transferred approved government funding to roads for settlements in a five year plan. So this is a lot of investment, and I'll say why this is so significant. This is also so what I said before, these unauthorized roads that they built, or the illegal roads that the they're building, have a significant effect on Palestinian livelihoods, etc, the seven, the $2 billion roads that the government is funding for settlements. This is sort of the heart of the or this is the, the core policy that needs to be done in order to to establish settlements, settlements because they're in an occupied territory, because they're deep in the West Bank, many of them, the you know, the Israeli public doesn't want to go there. When does the Israeli public goes? When do they go and live to the settlements? When there's a new road, a nice road, a highway becomes then settlements become suburbs. And the settlers know this, and we have published reports over this. In this history, like in we've several reports on this, showing that once you have a big highway, a new road, then the settlement grows significantly. They also established. You know, there's other funding that we can I can mention millions of dollars or shekels that going to settlements as such. The other thing, the last thing that I'll say before maybe I'll just, you know, I won't talk about settler violence if you want, because there's so much you can say, but I'll just say, in a sense, about subtler violence is that it's, it's, you know, the most cruel thing that you know one could imagine. And it's getting, I think, more international awareness to this one, due to the sanctions that are being posed by the United States and others on certain settlers, but also in the ICJ decision just from was it two weeks ago, or something like that? But also because they are a political tool, or a tool to achieve political ends, and they use such a violence in occasions where other mechanisms of taking control over Palestinian territories or the occupied territories is not at hand, and also to intimidate the Palestinian population. And this is just going, you know, it's, it's a regular routine in the most intensive way and in the place right now we're really since the October 7, it's not clear anymore how much you know the distinguish between settlers and the military is as hard as it ever was. Many of these violent settlers have are recruited by the military, are now officially part of the safeguarding community of these outposts or settlements. And of course, the scale and the violence is is as tough as it ever was. But lastly, what I want to also talk about is what I think most of you probably heard is, of course, the the annexation elements. Now, what I've said until now, these are all what we term, or the jargon terms de facto annexation, right? You build a settlement, it's you can argue that it's a de facto annexation. What this government is doing is doing it to your annexation, a legal annexation. And it's doing it by taking, basically by taking a building, a ministry for the settlements, and transferring authorities and responsibilities from the military to that ministry. And Smotrich is that minister. So he's the Minister of Finance. He's also minister of the settlements. And he established the settlement division. And the settlement division is responsible for settlers and land issues. And within this ministry, within this settler division, you have legal advisors, I think 26 who are civilians, who work for his ministry. And you have, so you're basically, basically established the ministry of settlements structure to the head of it, and you have the settlement division responsible for this. Now, why is this so significant because now you have, for example, two legal two different legal advisors for the West Bank. You have military legal advisors who are responsible for Palestinians, and you have civilian legal advisors who are responsible for settlers and land issues and such. So. And you know, when you talk to legal experts, they tend to highlight that, you know the occupation is, you know the mandate of Israel to occupy the territories is from international law. And even you know in the military that you know the Civil Administration, the military body that is responsible for Palestinian issues or civilian issues, knows that it has to regard that. It has to regard it, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's not a question. They know that they have to regard international law. And when they justify the their policies, which are, you know, settlement policies, and we argue, we, you know, criticize them, and we showcase them and we highlight them. We say how bad they are. They have to argue it in international law terms, and they justify it through this. When they take private Palestinian land, they say, Oh, well, it's for security issues. They need to take that into consideration. They can't otherwise. And in few places, it challenges them. Now it's much more severe than this, because now these civilians, these legal advisors, don't have to take any of this into account. They, on the contrary, their only interest, or their main interest, or their main obligation, is to fulfill the interests of the minister or of the Israeli public, because they're not committed, they're not part of the military occupation anymore. They're now a ministry of the State of Israel. Now I'll say that I'm turning this to ministry. Of course, Smotrich and the Israeli government spokespeople will say, Oh, it's not a military. It's not a new ministry. You know, peace now is is lying about this. But I will argue that what we revealed in The New York Times was that the Government of Israel knows that it can't today, in today's climate, annex the occupied territories. And so what they're doing is what they did since the start of the occupation, was to sort of Yeah, Israel bluff or will fool the international community. We're not building new settlements. It's an outpost, right? That's the argument, right? They're only outposts. They're small, they're insignificant, they're illegal, or even according to Israeli law. And then time comes and they retractably legalize them, and they become full settlements. What's happening now with annexation? They're doing annexation. They build this new ministry, but it's not a new ministry. It's a ministry within the minister of defense. And it's not a new department for settlement division. It's within, it's under the civil administrations. It's part of the military. But what was and but we know, and the people who are in the details, know that actually they have these authorities, which differentiates them from the military, and that it's, it's in in, in fact, a new ministry in, you know, in its essence, and what we revealed in The New York Times is that Smotrich said it in his words, which makes it much more easier for us to make This argument, because Smotrich basically said, or exactly said, Look, we couldn't annex it right now in today's climate, so we annexed it, and today it's annexed. And the other significant thing that he said, that the highlight, is that Netanyahu is fully on board. So Netanyahu is supporting this. And it's not just he's led by Smotrich. It's not just that. It's not just doing things and you can't and snow can't stop him. Sources is saying Netanyahu is on board, is fully on board, and he's supporting this full heartedly now. So these are, like, the major things that are happening on the ground. And of course, they have a lot of implications, and maybe we'll want to discuss them. I'll just say that they have a lot of implications on Palestinians and human rights issues first and foremost. And from our perspective on the political scheme is a force. It's a significant for the two state solution in Israel's relations to these territories, and, of course, in the prospering of ending this war, which seems much harder when Israel is arguing and making actions in order to say, well, the two state solution is off the table forever and will always occupy these these territories.
Madeleine Cereghino 19:13
Thank you, Lior, you've given us quite a lot to digest. I think I'd like to jump in to the legal elements that you touched on just now first, can you start before we really get into it? I had a question about from someone about where these kinds of settlements are occurring, whether it's area A, B or C, and I think if you could talk one where it's occurring, but also about the differences in the three areas and their administration, and what has changed from the administration under the guise of what Oslo envisioned it to now that we have this, you know, Ministry of settlements, as you say, and the kind of changes that have occurred under Smotrich. Much, yeah, if you could just give us a kind of a rundown there.
Lior Amihai 20:05
So look, I think you can get really nuanced and detailed about it, so, but I'll try not to do that. I'll try to be in the bigger picture. Because I think in the details it's, it's really difficult and hard to follow, but, but basically saying that until Oslo, until the 1990s then Israel had the direct occupation on the, you know, on the Palestinians. And also established the system where you know you, you know you, created the Palestinian Authority as an interim government, you know, before a Palestinian state. And this interim period, which was supposed to last for five years, decided that, you know, the Palestinians won't have a state immediately. It'll go through several stages, and throughout these stages they will receive more and more authorities on the ground. And the way they divided the territories, the the occupied 10 was to A, B and C, where areas a is full control of the Palestinian Authority. Area B was some control of the Palestinian Authority and full control of the Israeli security and security issues. And Area C was where, and that's where all the settlements are, and that's where 60% of the territories are, is where Israel still maintains full direct occupation now, the settlements and the outposts, and what we're seeing now, and all what I've talked to largely goes in Area C, like predominantly, it's all effective area C. Israel is terming this as you know, their fight for Area C. They're trying to take control over it and the and, and I'll say one more thing, you know, these settlements and outposts and these 25 you know, it's not like random, it's not, oh, there's an empty hilltop. Let's conquer that. It's really strategized, and it's in order to cut the West Bank into pieces. It's order to prevent development of Palestinian communities, and it's order to prevent growth of Palestinians like so community grows, then, okay, we'll block that, and we'll build a sub, an outpost there, and there'll be subtler violence, and we'll take their land and such. And this government took this a further step. And just think it was a couple of weeks ago or just recently, also decided to take authorities on demolition of Palestinian houses in quite a large portion in Area B. And again, you can go into the details, but this is a part of the Oslo Accords Netanyahu when he became prime minister back in 1996 installed this element into the courts where there was a a big portion, think it's about 40,000 acres. I'm reminding the that the Palestinian Authority had the authority to plan there, but Israel did not allow them to plan there, so something like that. And but throughout the years, Palestinian Palestinians still build there. And now they're saying, oh, Israel has the authority to demolish the Palestinian houses there the Palestinians built over the years. This is something that was never in Israel's authority to do. On the contrary. So now they're also taking control over areas a certain area B, that they didn't do so in the past.
Madeleine Cereghino 23:26
Thank you. So what we're seeing really is not just that kind of, like you said, creeping annexation, where we're seeing ongoing establishment effects on the ground, but now there's legalized elements to it coming. You know, not that annexation, not that the settlement construction and demolitions weren't coming from the top down, but now we're seeing it as like a really legally mandated structure. That's troubling to say the least. I did want to talk a little bit more about this kind of legalizing of outposts. And you mentioned that you know, settlements aren't chosen random, or aren't necessarily randomized. They're they're part of the larger strategy. Is that also how the legalization of outposts works, and what exactly you know goes into that.
Lior Amihai 24:21
Okay, so again, if we go really briefly, then the Oslo Accords, when Israel signed the Oslo Accords, Israel also said that it won't build any more settlements. And indeed it stopped. This was, of course, I know, officially Israel for a very long time, let's say like this, officially, Israel didn't build new settlements in the occupied territories. It just didn't, since they are still upwards. But then immediately after it said that two things happened. One is that the settler population grew dramatically, predominantly because of the roads and the bypass. Was in the highways that it built for these settlements as due to the Oscar cores. And the second is that dozens and hundreds of settlements were established, but were termed outpost and unauthorized. And for many years, the entire world was looking into these outposts, and the Government of Israel was saying, Oh, look, they're really small. They're insignificant. They're not official part of the State of Israel. They have no political significance for a two state solution. And don't mind them, like, let's go back to the negotiations and talk about the big picture. And don't mind these outposts, but they were being established like, you know, mushrooms after the rain, just happening constantly. Now and again over the years. Israel official statement was that these are illegal in at some point, I think it was 2017 or so, Israel changed its policy. They said, You know what? We're going to legalize some of them, and whoever we can, we'll legalize those that are not on private land, we'll try to legalize and and so on. And then what we're seeing now is sort of the peak of this policy, and what this government is doing now, which has never done before. It's one systematically trying to legalize all of these outposts, so they're building so now there's so all of these outposts are now saying our policy is to legalize all of them, and it's doing so by officially legalizing them and by contributing finances to those that are still illegal. And now they've established this big lease list of 70 outposts which we don't know, I think we don't know the the term that wasn't published with settlements, which outposts are on this list. But it's pretty much all dominant the or it's, it's almost all of the the community outposts. And now they're funding them directly, through millions of shekels through ministry governments. What they're also doing is establishing dozens of outposts that are also illegal but are known as agricultural farms. And these agricultural farms, why are they so significant? Because the settlers, the settler leadership, study this in their own words. And if you heard of Amana and their leaders, they've zambish. They basically said it look, in order to take over, to build an outpost or to build a settlement, you need a couple dozen people, a couple of dozen families. You need infrastructure. You need finances. We have another trick. Let's build these outbursts. Well, the purpose is to take over, control over the territory by just having one family there. And we'll take we'll build these farms, which are farms of one families, or of one family, or couple families or one individual with a few hilltop youth, and will throw them at certain places. And they'll not only take the hilltop that the the farm is built, but they'll also work the lands around them. And they're taking thousands of dunams of land, in practice, on the ground, and preventing Palestinian access to these territories and a huge contribution to settler violence and and friction between the populations is due to these out these outposts as agricultural farms. And the government, of course, is establishing them systematically and since 2017 but very much so in recent years and again, since the war. These of these 25 outposts, I think roughly 20 of them are agricultural farms.
Madeleine Cereghino 28:46
Thank you. I want to come back to the issue of agricultural farms and settler violence. But before we do, um, you know, you've mentioned a couple times now the government directly funding outposts. I know we've talked about the nearly 2 billion in roads for settlements and outposts that you guys were able to uncover, but what specifically Could you share about what the government is funding within the outposts?
Lior Amihai 29:14
So first of all, there's the business as usual, only on steroids, and this is government funding to settlements and settler issues and and settler ideology, which the government has, really, you know, built the ministries for this. So you have, for First of all, Minister Smotrich, who is the, you know, an ideologist, you know, from the heart of the settlement and settler sort of ideologist, you know, messianic sort of settlers. Who is worked on this for many years, indicated finance minister and the minister of the settlements. So now he's not only in charge of Israel's money, he's also very easily, sort of paved the way for it to cut to the settlement because he's also the the minister within the Ministry of Defense, or, you know, as what I said here. The settler minister. So that's like, something that, something that this government is doing, which was, you know, it's on the big level, and and the other thing that they're doing, so they've built this. So they got Minister Smotrich. They have other ministers like Stroke, who's in charge of this in other ministries, and that are funding them directly, on much severe scales. And what I said before, and I'll repeat it again, is that they're funding the outposts now. You know directly, you know it's so what if it's illegal, according to Israeli law? Let's fund them. And they're transferring money to that as well. I don't know if you wanted to go into further details about but I think this is like, the like. The message is that, you know, we're not, there's nothing like we're I'll say it this way. Minister stroke, who said it was, you know, published, said, this is a miracle. We are now living miracle. And it's true, because if you're now a settler ideologist, who you know the Israeli public doesn't care for and largely speaking, doesn't care for the outposts and messianic views, doesn't care for stopping them, but doesn't care for this ideology. They are now the government. They are now living the fantasy of doing whatever they they can, and that is to finance them, to establish them, and to change the legal practice. Now, there are them things that they can do. They can't fully annex the territories, right? They know international the community, can still say this is way too much. Smotrich said yesterday, right? I don't know if you saw that. "If we could, we would starve the population of Gaza, but we can't." So there are still limitations to what they want to do. And they want, of course, to annex the territories and to expel the Palestinian population and so on. This they can do, but they can go very close, and they're now annexing them without calling it official annexation, but they're actually annexing the territories and building as many settlements as they can, and financing them and doing whatever they want.
Madeleine Cereghino 32:18
So I have a question in the chat, why aren't these activities being challenged in the courts? And if they are, what are the courts doing about them? Look, get into obviously, you know the dual track of trying to annex the West Bank and also trying to undermine the judiciary, and perhaps why those are parallel goals for the right in Israel.
Lior Amihai 32:49
Okay, so I'll start by the first thing question, and I'll go back to your point, which I think is super important. But look, it's like the the court system in Israel, first of all, they are being challenged and peace now, you know, we're the front line of challenge, trying to challenge these other human rights organizations are also doing this, of course. So the court is definitely a tool that we use and other groups use in order to prevent expose challenge government policies and actions, but it's, you know, we've learned something over the decades of doing this, and that it's, it's a very limited tool. There are few victories, or few successes, but at the end of the day, it's far from being a successful intervention in preventing settlement policies and actions that are being occurred. And there are several justifications for this, and of course, the government the courts, just don't want to go into this issue. It's such a harsh political or such a sensitive political issue for the courts to deal with. You know, they know that if they touch this issue, then you know the discourse of the government against them will be as harsh as possible. And again, the climax of it was, of course, what we've seen in the government attempts to weaken the legal system in Israel, which which is very good on some other things, just not on issues regarding to the occupation. And so the courts really don't want to do this. At some points, they do because, you know, and we can go to the several few success stories that there are two, but the largest Speaker This court doesn't want to do it. They don't want to deal with it. They find their own excuses. If it's security issues, if it's within the authorities of the government to do whatever they want, if it's to buy time, and then they allow the government to respond and not to respond, etc, and and they they really buy into, largely speaking, to the government arguments that you know that's trying to fool the system. So now. For example, the the settlement ministry. You know, they didn't build the settlement ministry, as I stated one thing, they built the ministry within the Ministry of Defense. And this whole settlement division that I talked about, which is the, basically the ministry of settlements. It's still under a military body. Now, the military body, or the military gave in a military order the responsibilities and authorities to that settlement division to do whatever they want. So the military does it. It took this response from it, but they did it under a military order. So for the courts to intervene and say that this is an illegal order is a very hard thing for the courts to do in Israel. If they'll do so, they'll be just undermined immediately. So it's so the courts, the message of the courts are very weak and very weak as sort of being understanding. So I would say they're not brave, to say the least, on this issue, and they're not taking it's not a stand that I think the courts, the courts in Israel, are willing to do these days. Now, again, we've been criticizing the Israeli courts on this issue for years, and over the years, our criticism gotten harsher and harsher, because we saw how the legal tool that we have some hopes for many years back, we saw how it's failing time and again, this is still not good enough for the settlers, and because at the end of the day, you cannot have a coherent system that disadvantages one group over the other or advances one group over the other and creates this discriminatory system where you have one Group as citizens, as the and the other as under occupation or inferior or whatever, and and some of these abnormalities are like private land rights. You cannot officially take Palestinian private land. In practice, a lot of privatizing land has been taken, but there's this. You can't do it officially. You have to find excuses in rodent for the settlers, it's not good enough. They want a coherent system where it all makes sense, where they can achieve their policies unapologetically, and they can do whatever they want. They don't need to build the settlement division under the military, but they'll say loud and loud and clear, we're building the set of the division for the settlements, and this territory is annexed, and we can do whatever you want. And yes, and if you're a Palestinian, you're not a citizen, and you'll be treated under military law or whatever, and we can be do this and this. So for this system that was so bad anyways, the settlers are trying to weaken, and this is sort of what we saw during, I want to say, last year, before October 7. But you know, it's still a big question mark, if it's not happening still to this day, and just a and just on different sort of ways, but, but, but if we won't into that, go into that, you can say, largely speaking, the the judicial changes that this government tried to do was very much so an initiative of the settlements in order that they could live or Create their fantasy of one system that enables and justifies their sort of vision for the State of Israel, which is one that is for Jews and a certain type of Jews, I would argue, not all Jews, and of course not Palestinians, will be still In their occupation.
Madeleine Cereghino 38:21
So I have a bunch of things that I want to talk about with you that have been raised. But let's, you know, talk about this idea of sellers wanting a very clear, you know, from the government, you know, ability to make these steps and to kind of prevent the formation of a two state solution. Because that brings me to something I did want to raise, which was, you know, the fact that a few weeks ago now, the Knesset passed a resolution rejecting the two state solution, the formation of Palestinian state, which is obviously, you know, just the embodiment of these, you know, long policies that they've been furthering on the ground. What has been the reaction in Israel to this, and do you envision other similar legislation going forward?
Lior Amihai 39:13
Well, on the one hand, first of all, it's it. On the one hand, it wasn't new, because this government's policy is that there will never be a Palestinian state. So in that sense, it wasn't new. I think what was, you know, what made us sort of listen to this and criticize this, and to say was one that it was also supported by the opposition, so it was supported by Parliament, who was not part of this government and and the second was that those who wholeheartedly want the different like who see the picture that Biden is seeing, and that the Americans are seeing that in order to end this war and to. The only way for Israel to go back to normalcy is through a two state solution. And if you want to end this war, if you want to return of the hostages, if you want to stop the escalation of this conflict with Iran and with Hezbollah, this is the only way out. Now, it's not a guarantee. It's not to say that. You know, if we'll have a two state solution, Israel will have this, you know, you know this. You know, all, all the problems solved. We're not there, of course, but it's an essential step in order to go to that direction. We have to have this if we want the slimmest chance to have a better future. And I would argue that, and I think Biden is arguing this. And you know, everybody who has, you know, who understands the big picture sees that, you know, yes, you know, Israel can still prosper and live in a democracy with security. You know, if we would have asked Israel in, you know, in 1949 or 1952 are you willing to accept a two state solution, and you'll have peace with all Arab states. And then Iran was not Iran today, of course, but a coalition with them to provide you with security and benefits with the United States. Who would would say no, and in today's Israel's political climate, Israel is saying no, and they're saying no, and they're doing it through Parliament, and no one, and maybe this is the third point why we got so frustrated about this. No one, largely, is opposing this. There's no opposition in Israel's government. In Israel parliament, in these are in the political system in Israel, the opposition is weak. It's an ideological and it's not challenging the government on these issues. It's challenging them on the hostages. You have to do more to return the hostages. It's challenging them on corruption. It's challenging them on the judicial challenge that the government had to do. But what is Benny Gantz vision for the State of Israel? Does anyone know what is Yair lapis vision for the State of Israel. How is he going to end this war? Does anyone know, how is so this, I think, is what's got us was in the business of the two state solution. Who sees, you know, who's fighting for Israel to go on the right path? Was so frustrated with this parliament decision to prove, you know, that saying that there will not be a Palestinian state.
Madeleine Cereghino 42:23
I want to inject a little hope into this conversation. I did have a question from someone in the chat, and I'm going to merge it with one of mine. You know, they asked, What are the most effective actions that peace now is currently doing? And that was kind of in response to our conversation around the courts not really being the right avenue. But before you answer that, I want to also take a minute to talk about President Biden's Executive Order, which was issued in February targeting Israeli settlers accused of perpetrating attacks against Palestinians and Israeli peace activists, and also against those who support or promote this violence. This order, you know, was crafted to have broader reaching implications, and it certainly has in subsequent sanctions that have been issued over the months. You know, they've targeted folks who not only commit these activities but farm outposts that host it, they've targeted, you know, organizations themselves, organizations that, have, you know, prevented communitarian aid from getting into Gaza crowdfunding sources. It really has been very broad reaching, and I think, troubled the government quite a bit, which is great to hear. Frankly. Do you see that having a chilling effect?
Lior Amihai 43:47
Okay, you started with hope, and then you asked, like a direct question, that I have to have a sincere answer. And I think that, I think that, I think that one of the most positive things, policies that the government of of the US, the American administration, took, are these sanctions. I think it's, it's long waited. I think it's and why I support it so much, because to have sanctions an individual, you can say is, is, is anti human rights, right? You know, the these settlers who who have sanctions on them, they weren't foot to try. But this is the problem, because what we're seeing is that this is a lack of confidence in Israel's legal system, in Israel's enforcement of the law and and the consequences are just too high. And when you have so much evidence, and when you see so much the settler violence, and you see that the Government of Israel is basically supporting them, encouraging them, not preventing them, not providing protection to the Palestinians, then I think it's the minimum step that could happen, and it's a big statement. And but the the lack of the problem is, or to yet, is that it hasn't had any effect on the ground. And I think it will have an effect if these sanctions are shifted significantly to settler organizations like Amana and recov or two very prominent individuals like Minister Smotrich, I will say that would also be more symbolic, because I'll say it this way, financial sanctions and individuals were willing to go to Palestinian neighborhoods and throw cocktail molotov bottles to burn houses or throw stones that risk like can kill or damage significantly Palestinian communities. Financial sectors won't stop them. They won't prevent them, if you so, that's why it's not preventing them yet. And I think much as well, he's not. He doesn't care about his finances, about his salaries, about that's he. That's not going to prevent them. It will be very symbolic that an Israeli Minister would get sanctions. It's very symbolic that the United States is sanctioning Israeli citizens. This is something that was didn't happen today, that the sentence of sanctioning Israelis has a lot of meaning in that sense, in that sense, but I think it could potentially have a much wider on the ground effect and actual material effect, if groups like Amana, reggae beam and others won't be able to have financial activities and will have to close down due To that, and then we'll actually think we'll see some and I would encourage American citizens to encourage their representatives to follow path on that avenue. But I do want to talk about hope, and because it started with hope, and I was happy you did that...
Madeleine Cereghino 47:02
Fair. I think you know having this mechanism that really does cut off crowdfunding. Like all you mentioned, Hebron settlement being retroactively legalized. There are violent settlers in Hebron. We know this so and we also know that American friends of Hebron funds a significant chunk of the activities there. So it's not inconceivable that sanctions could be implemented that would really undercut a major source of their funding. So I think it's helpful. But yes, please give me hope!
Lior Amihai 47:35
Oh yes, yes, absolutely. This is, I think, the most significant policy step that was taken that in my lifetime, apart maybe from before the Madrid Conference. And this is, I think, a significant step that the Americans took and led the international community, or parts of the international community, to follow. So this is really important. And this is really important, and this is hopeful. My only encourage, like I would also hope that this will they would go further down to those, to the organizations who are the most significant in creating this environment and system and structure that takes Palestinian land that prevents a lifted solution that leads to settler violence, etc, but going back to your hope, anyways, that you started with, it's your question. I'm not hogging the conversation on this. I think that there is, you know, it's, it's to be, to be fair and sincere. To be in Israel today is to be without hope. That is like if you're speaking to Israel, especially tonight, you know we are. This is, you know, very unusual for like, for me, to be out of the office these days. You know, we're, we don't know if Iran will attack Bucha, his ball will attack to do you know, and how far? So we're living like, direct like, these days, especially under, under fire, not to mention, of course, the north of Israel and the south of Israel, which are like, which are north, especially now, are constant attacks. And nobody in Israel knows how this will end. Nobody knows, and like some have, like we have, our vision for this will end, and most of Israelis don't follow this vision at this moment. So nobody really knows, how will this end and when and how will you return the hostages? And so to be in Israel today is to be a person without hope. The only people that have hope are those who are demonstrating to end this war because of the Israeli hostages, and their only hope is that the hostages will be returned alive and as soon as possible, and that's a very sad position for us to be as as a nation and as citizens. So this is a very despair situation that we're living in. And why? What is the hope? The hope is that there's no alternative. And. And this what we're seeing is the vision of the Israeli right wing, the settler vision, of the Messianic vision in Israel, is leading up. This is what their vision is. This is that living on the sword what it means. This is what their vision is. What does annexation look like? It's permanent occupation. What does living on the sword means? It means it means that there will always be people who are trying to resist it, and will give them excuse to fight back and fight back. And this is what they want. This is their vision of this place. They don't have a different vision. They don't envision peace with Arab states or or with Palestinians to, you know, to say, this is, this is we're living now, the secular fantasy and vision for the State of Israel. And I think we know, we see that this has immediate implications on the region, on the coast region, on Europe, on the United States, globally, etc. Of course, it has for and as Israelis support this war, for, I would argue, certainly some justified reasons. Clearly this there will be there is a fatigue, and at the end of the day, when this will be clear, this government has no vision and that this is just leading us to a dead end, people will oppose it. And now they're already opposing it in order to return the hostages, and they wanted to support and then the question would be, what next? And what do we have to do? And if we'll manage to sort of build on that and to create a fiercer opposition that will say, Look this way or the other way, we have to go to the other. We tried violence, we tried war, we tried annexation and occupation, we have to go to the other route. That will be, I think. And you know, it's, I was born in 1984 so it's before my my time. But you know, Egypt, right? It's different. But Israel's biggest enemy was in 73 and we made peace with Egypt, and there's a peace which hold on. And who would have imagined Israel today with a peace agreement with Egypt and Jordan? Just imagine the seventh of October if there wasn't peace with Egypt and Jordan, how would Israel look like? How would this war be like? How would the situation be? So I think, you know, it's it's hard to see it, it's hard to feel it, but there is hope. Is a political choice, and we don't have an alternative. And there's so much to do, you know. And you asked what we're doing now, at peace now, I think we're doing two of the most, hardest things that can be done. One is to document and provide analysis on what the government is all what the government is doing and the settlers are doing in regards to what we just briefed, you know, talked about in regards to annexation and settlements, and they're just so much to do. And we're working in a lot of fields, the word Parliament trying to analyze the finances the government is doing. We're on the ground where the legal actions, trying to see how we can challenge. We've talked about the legal challenges. We're looking into that as well. You know, how do we utilize the legal situation right now to expose and express the government so there's so much we're doing, and if you look at, you know, settler watch reports. We've never had two such established researchers in settlement watch, and they've never worked as hard as they're doing, as they're working since this government was established, and especially since October 7. And the last thing that we're doing is, I think that we have the most unappreciated and the most difficult work in Israel right now, and that is to fight for the Israelis who identify as Zionists, who identify as liberals, who care about the state of Israel, and also get and understand that Palestinians are just as equal and just as deserving. And this what we what this government is doing, and is is harmful as as it could be. And, you know, and this is a very unpopular choice to be right now, because we haven't given up on the state of Israel. We see here is our country where we want to live in, and to better be a better place. And yet we're trying to work with the public, who is in the military, who's frightened, who who doesn't believe in a two state solution, as clear as we do, it certainly doesn't believe in the settlements and this public, I would argue no one is speaking to no one because Yair Lapid is not doing this, and neither is Benny Gantz and and the more left groups that we're in complete solidarity with them always and we go and we support them physically and we know in their demons. Is an image. They're not approaching this group either. So I think we really took upon ourselves a very difficult challenge to go to this to represent these Israelis who are left, who are Zionists, who are liberal, and who just, you know, don't have a political camp at this moment. So this is what we're trying to do every day, basically. And I'll say another thing, you know, we just finished a course right now of high schoolers, you know, of nearly 20 individuals who, during the war, signed up to a Peace Now course to learn about this, I, you know, we had noise in the beginning. I don't know if you heard the noise in the beginning, because we had about 30 activists now, listening to a professor from Hebrew University on international law analyzing, you know, the ICJ decision and all the legal actions right now that are happening in regards to Israel. So there is so much we can do to work and encourage and yes, it's hard to see how this all will change. But you know, when I really think that we have, as long as we see so much value in our work, we just have to push forward and something will happen.
Madeleine Cereghino 56:18
Thank you, Lior, we're with you in this fight, and I can't think of a more, you know, beautiful way to close this conversation, as much as I know there's 1000 other questions in the chat that I know we could get to, but I think this is a really lovely note to end on. So, so thank you. We're with you, and I want to share the thanks from folks in the Q and A as well, who want to express their gratitude for the work you're doing.
Lior Amihai 56:41
And thank you. And, of course, thank you APN for all of this.
Madeleine Cereghino 56:44
Our pleasure. And thank you to everyone who joined us. This will be available as a recording. You can find it on our website.